Comments on Christianity: Doctrine and Ethics: How Do We Do Social Justice? (II)

Hey bpr,I was reading an article on townhall.com a...

2008-03-27T06:29:00.000-07:00

Hey bpr,

I was reading an article on townhall.com and thought it fit into your thread. Click here to read the article. That research, done by a registered independent, should be current enough for you.

Burper,Thanks so much for clarifying things. Yes, ...

2008-03-25T15:50:00.000-07:00

Burper,
Thanks so much for clarifying things. Yes, it's true that I neither read well or debate well. Rather than admit the stats back up what I say, you can take cheap Internet bravado shots.
Thanks for stopping by. I'm off to other topics. Next time you might want to explain why stats that were valid in the 1980s and were recently reported still to be valid don't count. Did you look up the references I gave you?

>Should a theologian look at 26 year old exegesis ...

2008-03-25T10:39:00.000-07:00

>Should a theologian look at 26 year old exegesis or read a theologian who has been dead for longer than 26 years?

Sure, the Bible hasn't changed a lot in 26 years.

Either you don't read well or you don't debate well. The first thing I did was qualify my statement with: old research would be fine if the subject did not have a significant cohort effect. math, psychology, ancient history, music...

>Get over being bitter or it will eat you alive--if it hasn't already.

I'm not bitter. I just hate to see poor arguments made using the Bible to defend an agenda. As much as you hate that about the left, it is amazing that you still do it yourself.

Burper,Should a theologian look at 26 year old exe...

2008-03-25T06:42:00.000-07:00

Burper,
Should a theologian look at 26 year old exegesis or read a theologian who has been dead for longer than 26 years?
Your arguments are specious and self-serving. Get over being bitter or it will eat you alive--if it hasn't already.

old research would be fine if the subject did not ...

2008-03-24T18:27:00.000-07:00

old research would be fine if the subject did not have a significant cohort effect. math, psychology, ancient history, music... all fair game for 20 year old research.

A doctor would not look at a 26 year old paper for the latest info on how to perform an operation.

A sociologist would not look at 26 year old research to make assumptions about a different generation and how they behave with their money.

Burper,Why is citing older information invalid, un...

2008-03-24T15:17:00.000-07:00

Burper,
Why is citing older information invalid, unless, of course, you're skeptical of anything that isn't important to you.
If you're really interested in the up-to-date stuff though, I suggest that you go to Laura Ingraham's web site and ask her about the latest data on this subject. If she can't help you, try Larry Elder's web site. You can also Google US stats on this subject.
Would you mind giving us a "kosher" list of what years are acceptable to you for stats and which ones aren't. I'd really be interested in your criterion for judging what is allowable and what we should refuse.

>Start with George Gallup, Jr., "Is America's Fait...

2008-03-21T21:09:00.000-07:00

>Start with George Gallup, Jr., "Is America's Faith for Real?" Princeton Theological Seminary, "Alumni News," Vol. 22, no. 4, Summer 1982, pp. 15-17.

Citing 26 year old research is hardly indicative of a modern trend.

Any modern research indicating that conservatives contribute a higher percentage of their income than liberals?

"Thick as a Brick."Hmmm. Reminds me of Jethro Tull...

2008-03-21T06:48:00.000-07:00

"Thick as a Brick."

Hmmm. Reminds me of Jethro Tull.

Sorry, Ron. I had to inject just a bit of levity.

--WHAT RIGHT do we have to narrowly define God as ...

2008-03-20T13:35:00.000-07:00

--WHAT RIGHT do we have to narrowly define God as we see fit? What gives you the right to ignore Solomon's great warnings about pride? What right do you have to know with absolute clarity the biblical truths of every God breathed word of the text when great scholars such as John Calvin and so many other argued for hundreds of years?--

I just saw this next, and could help but connect it to the above. It's a question, then a reply by Oprah. Emphases mine.

First Caller (“Kelly from Alton, Illinois”): …Well, my question is regarding religion and spirituality.... In reading books such as Tolle’s … it’s really opened my eyes up to a new way of thinking, a new form of spirituality that doesn’t always align with the teachings of Christianity. So my question is to you, Oprah, how have you reconciled these spiritual teachings with your Christian beliefs?

Oprah: … I’ve reconciled it because I was able to open my mind about the absolute, indescribable hugeness of that which we call God. I took God out of the box because I grew up in the Baptist church and there were, you know, rules and , you know, belief systems and doctrine. And I happened to be sitting in church in my late 20s, and I was going to this church where you had to get there, and, you know, at 8 o’clock in the morning or you couldn’t get a seat, and a very charismatic minister, and everybody was just, you know, into the sermon. And this great minister was preaching about how great God was and how omniscient and omnipresent, and God is everything; and then he said “And the Lord thy God is a jealous God.” And I was, you know, caught up in the rapture of that moment until he said “jealous,” and something struck me. I was like about 27 or 28, I was thinking, God is all, God is omnipresent, and God is also jealous? God is jealous? Jealous of me? And something about that didn’t “feel” right in my spirit because I believe that God is love, and that God is in all things. And so that’s when the search for something more than doctrine started to stir within me….

…And, you know, it’s been a journey to get to the place where I understand… that what I believe is that Jesus came to show us Christ consciousness. . . . Jesus came to show us the way of the heart… to show us the higher consciousness that we’re all talking about here…. Jesus came to say, “Look I came to live in the human body and I’m going to show you how it is done. These are some principles, and some laws you can use to live by to know that way.”…

[ITunes podcast: “Oprah and Eckhart Tolle Discuss Chapter 1 of ‘A New Earth’” 3/3/08]

http://herescope.blogspot.com/2008/03/cheatn-hearts.html

Randy,History and historians have rightly judged J...

2008-03-20T10:45:00.000-07:00

Randy,
History and historians have rightly judged Jefferson's view of slavery as incorrect. I seem to remember reading some books about how America eventually fought a war about that, where more than 600,000 Americans died--a few more than Iraq.
What do you think historians will say about us and the infallible holy shrine of the liberals: abortion?
You can kick Jefferson in the shins, but I'm highly surprised that you fell into the old liberal trap of slavery when you could have used abortion.

Randy,I read this and thought of you: "Black Ameri...

2008-03-20T10:41:00.000-07:00

Randy,
I read this and thought of you: "Black America has yet to come to grips with its responsibility to tackle head on the problems that plague our communities. White America has yet to acknowledge the fact that here in the "home of the free," true liberty has evaded many for far too long." Remember these? Your problem is that you divide America into black and white, while I simply speak of American.
It is very short-sighted on your part to think that people have not attempted solutions to the problems of poverty. In most cases, however, especially in light of the welfare state, they have sought the wrong pragmatic, utilitarian solutions.

Your quote about Kirk was just downright stupid, so I'll pass by it.

Why do you believe statistics that say that conservatives don't give more? What would it take for you to believe them? Short answer: nothing, because you're a bleeding heart liberal and you believe that conservatives are your enemy.

Who are you to talk about "rights?" Kinda dumb, huh? Randy, the reason I believe that the "Ethics of Jesus" is bogus is because it's a liberal ploy to separate what Jesus taught from the rest of Scripture. When Jesus stated that he didn't come to do his own will, but the will of the One who sent him (cf. John 6:38)he was clearly referring to the will of the Father in the OT. When Paul wrote in 2 Tim. 3:16-17 about the sufficiency of the scriptures, he was referring to the OT. Virtually to a (liberal) man, pacifists, textual critics, social gospel advocates, and theological liberals have juxtaposed what Jesus taught to what Paul (feminists), Isaiah, Peter, and Moses taught. Get it, Randy? Is it clear now? You really did waste your money at seminary.

Who ever said we know all we need to know? Why in the world do you think I keep studying, thinking, preaching, and writing? You are undoubtedly as thick as a brick.

Burper,Start with George Gallup, Jr., "Is America'...

2008-03-20T10:28:00.000-07:00

Burper,
Start with George Gallup, Jr., "Is America's Faith for Real?" Princeton Theological Seminary, "Alumni News," Vol. 22, no. 4, Summer 1982, pp. 15-17. Liberals talk the talk, but when it comes to their own wallets, they don't walk the walk. Typically, they prefer to have their hands in someone else's wallet. That way, somehow, they feel morally superior.

--White America has yet to acknowledge the fact th...

2008-03-20T06:52:00.000-07:00

--White America has yet to acknowledge the fact that here in the "home of the free," true liberty has evaded many for far too long.--

Really? Where, exactly, have we "yet to acknowledge" such a thing?

--Why do you have such and unwillingness to acknowleget that people on the other side have things of value to say?--

What other side? Liberal, you mean? For one thing, often the problems they see are problem we see, too.

Very well, but when they propose their cures, that's when we rightly see that their "cures" are in many ways worse then the disease.

So, instead of helping poverty by providing people with real work and helping them in that way to help themselves to rise out of poverty, they'd rather take what others have worked for and give it to those who have not worked for it. Instead of dealing with ethical and moral issues through the absolutes of biblical morality, they'd rather do it through the relativism of personal feelings and standards.

--WHAT RIGHT do we have to narrowly define God as we see fit?--

Cartoonish caricature.

What RIGHT do you have to so broadly define God that people who worship Allah or whatever it is Buddhist worship can be included as being 'right with God'?

"...it was clear that those who call themselves bi...

2008-03-19T21:01:00.000-07:00

"...it was clear that those who call themselves biblical “conservatives” in fact gave more charitable donations than their liberal counterparts."

"What has happened, as often as not, is that the Church has followed the likes of LBJ, Carter, Wallis, and McLaren and simply thrown money at the problem..."

Glad to see the right has outdone the left in simply throwing money at the problem.

I am interested in taking a look at the surveys you mention regarding the generosity of the right vs. left. Could you refer me to the studies?

Rattle,I read this today and thought of you. Blac...

2008-03-19T19:58:00.000-07:00

Rattle,

I read this today and thought of you.

Black America has yet to come to grips with its responsibility to tackle head on the problems that plague our communities. White America has yet to acknowledge the fact that here in the "home of the free," true liberty has evaded many for far too long.

"Too often these conversations are ended before they've truly begun, due to the ignorance, intransigence or simple unwillingness of people to acknowledge the validity of what the other side has to say."

Why do you have such and unwillingness to acknowleget that people on the other side have things of value to say?

Why do you talk about biblical truth and then quote Russell Kirk?

Why do you believe the 3 million Christians living in Iraq prior to this war now find it of greater pleasure to be displaced from their own country?

Why do you believe statistics about conservatives giving a larger percentage of their money when you won't believe the statistics of how many people have died in Iraq from our war?

What right do you have to call the ethics of Jesus secondary to the 'whole counsel of God?' As far as I know, Jesus is God. So, to say that one trumps the other is simply maddening. Don't claim to use big terms like 'full counsel of God' to trump those who use other language such as 'ethics of Jesus.' It strikes of pride and arrogance. Do I need to quote a dozen Bible verses to remind all of us that the biblical text is clear on the consequences of pride?

See. This is the irony of being 'biblical.' We can talk about the biblical text all day, but you are AT LEAST as guilty as me.

You claim to be above pride and arrogance.

You claim to be a voice that can judge the hearts of men because it's your calling to help us see the truth. Yet, you judge everyone. Everyone.

So, what truth do you hold to be true beyond the Constitution of the United States as interpreted by Thomas Jefferson? Should we be required to own property to vote as he had hoped? Should we still be allowed to own slaves as he thought was a right?

Or has the Spirit of the living God given us wisdom to see the errors of some of Jefferson's ways as well? Are we learning as God moves among us, or do we 'conserve' to keep things as they once were when...

What date exactly do we use as our point of 'conserving?' Is this when Calvin was born or died? Was it prior to nuclear weapons? Was it when Reagan gained control over that Communist regine of Carter? Or was it simply when Leave It To Beaver was as wonderful as sliced white bread?

You see. You leave a lot of questions as well. It's not really so simple. Perhaps we need to recognize that followers of Jesus, or perhpas the newly defined 'followers of the whole counsel of God,' have had a tough go of it.

Following an all powerful and all knowing and always present God is not so easy to understand. Even those 12 disciples screwed up and screwed up and screwed up. Still, Jesus turns to Peter and says, "On you I'll build my church." Talking about a looser.

But we now come along and claim that we know all there is to know, and we claim that anyone with a different party affiliation has the biblical text all messed up and...

WHAT RIGHT do we have to narrowly define God as we see fit? What gives you the right to ignore Solomon's great warnings about pride? What right do you have to know with absolute clarity the biblical truths of every God breathed word of the text when great scholars such as John Calvin and so many other argued for hundreds of years?

Rattler, my friend in Christ, above all else we need humility and love. For without these, we are nothing.

Randy,You've had your head filled with liberal ega...

2008-03-19T11:10:00.000-07:00

Randy,
You've had your head filled with liberal egalitarianism--doesn't this help the conversation? You call me a name and I call you one back.
Yes,I am a conservative both theologically and politically.
According to Russell Kirk (Enemies of the Permanent Things) "To be conservative is to be a conservator: a guardian of old truths and old rights" (p. 21).
I have norms and they include the whole counsel of God and not the silly notion of "The Ethics of Jesus." A norm means an enduring standard. In the case of Scripture, it is a law of God, which we ignore or distort at our peril. God's words are universal rules of human conduct and public virtue.
Sider's (and others) views are clearly Marxist (including the oxymoron of Liberation Theology, which is also thoroughly Marxist, just like Campolo, McLaren, & Wallis). I say this as a kind of warning because it is patently true that men do not submit long to their own creations. Standards, ideas, and ideologies erected out of expediency will be hurled down, soon enough, by more human expediency.
BTW, your analogy about the Right keeping its money is just dead wrong. As much as you liberals talk about giving money, survey after survey shows that conservatives are far, far more generous with their money than you liberals.
But the point is this: Now I am giving you biblical evidence and reasons and you still refuse to engage in any type of rational, reasonable argument. This is truly your modus operandi and, quite frankly, it is tedious beyond measure. Either respond with some solid biblical evidence or be quiet.

-- you are an equally enthusiastic follower of Rep...

2008-03-19T07:07:00.000-07:00

-- you are an equally enthusiastic follower of Republican conservativism....--

Oh, and that's a bad thing?

--We may talk about redistributing wealth by those on the left, but those on the right prefer to keep it to themselves.--

And your point?

No, seriously, you make it sound like a bad thing, that people want to keep what they've worked for. Or that at the least, they'd rather be able to keep or give it as they see fit, rather then trust the government to do it for them.

--Don't believe that our One Trillion dollars spent on an Iraqi war didn't benefit very wealthy people.--

Or some very poor people, too. Or do you think the Iraqi people want to go back to Hussein's tyranny and life of wealth while they suffered under sanctions?

--We can talk about redistributing wealth, but the politics of this administration have not been conservative in any real sense of the term. Yet, I don't recall that I've read anything speaking out against its utter failure toward the American people.--

Granting that the Bush II presidency hasn't been all a conservative would have wished for, you rhetoric of "utter failure" isn't exactly accurate, either. Last I checked, we do have some tax cuts, we do have some good Supreme Court judges, and we have improved national defense.

Just when I thought our convesation was going some...

2008-03-18T19:10:00.000-07:00

Just when I thought our convesation was going somewhere... shoot.

Ron, if you honestly read your post, while you are a committed follower of Jesus, you are an equally enthusiastic follower of Republican conservativism....

While you judge the theology of everyone on the left, you simply don't do the same thing with the 'right.'

We may talk about redistributing wealth by those on the left, but those on the right prefer to keep it to themselves. Those on the right have there own power games they play. Don't believe that our One Trillion dollars spent on an Iraqi war didn't benefit very wealthy people.

This is not to suggest the purpose of the war was for wealth gain, but more than a few people close to this administration have made hundreds of millions on this war.

We can talk about redistributing wealth, but the politics of this administration have not been conservative in any real sense of the term. Yet, I don't recall that I've read anything speaking out against its utter failure toward the American people.

Tim,It wasn't me, but I've used that in a number o...

2008-03-17T20:26:00.000-07:00

Tim,
It wasn't me, but I've used that in a number of interviews, articles, and writings so it's possible that someone is just borrowing it. It is, I think, an apt phrase and one I hope Christian parents will ponder. Right now in the US, 85% of Christian parents have their children in public schools. When you think about the wide, wide variance--indeed, contradiction--between the secular humanist's view of God, man, society, truth (except the Emergents, of course), knowledge, and ethics, and the Christian's it should be a no-brainer to pull your kids out of Caesar's schools.

Ron, I just received our copy of World Magazine to...

2008-03-17T12:57:00.000-07:00

Ron, I just received our copy of World Magazine today. It looks very much like you were quoted on p. 18 in the "Quotables" section ("If you're going to send your kids to Caesar, you're going to get Romans back."). Is this, in fact, you?

It reminds of something similar I heard once: If you send your kids to Babylon, don't be surprised if they come back with Babylonian brains!

Kyle,Got it but haven't had the opportunity to rea...

2008-03-16T18:03:00.000-07:00

Kyle,
Got it but haven't had the opportunity to read it yet. I'm very much looking forward to taking a look at it.

Ron, The one with my paper on justice. I hope it d...

2008-03-16T11:41:00.000-07:00

Ron,

The one with my paper on justice. I hope it didn't get caught in your spam box! The E-mail address is "kjsulli(at)gmail(dot)com." Let me know if you didn't get it, and I'll resend it.

Kyle,Which one?

2008-03-15T18:09:00.000-07:00

Kyle,
Which one?

Ron,Just wanted to check if you got my E-mail?

2008-03-15T16:13:00.000-07:00

Ron,

Just wanted to check if you got my E-mail?

As a lazy, shortsighted person I have to say right...

2008-03-14T23:45:00.000-07:00

As a lazy, shortsighted person I have to say right on. I'll spare you all the details, but I managed to burn through somewhere between $30k and $50k in the past few years(I don't keep good records of earnings, so the exact amount evades me). Part of that was student loans meant to help me out, but they just gave ol' short-sighted me more money to burn through and ultimately didn't help at all.

I had to come face to face with the results of my financial irresponsibility before I was willing to change -- before I even knew change was possible, actually, because I had almost 0 financial knowledge. I figured out approximately how much I'd wasted, and found out what that money could have done for me if I hadn't wasted it on video games, fast food, and other things.

It's not much, but I've curbed the bulk of my spending(that impulse to buy is so hard to control sometimes), and begun savings. I have a solid plan that involves high-yield savings accounts, and even investing! If you'd asked me a few years ago if I'd be investing, I'd have thought you were crazy, but here I am getting ready to buy into some mutual funds. I'm sure I'll do more as I learn more about how this stuff works, but it's a start.

Yeah, preaching on the sinful causes of poverty -- and providing something like a financial workshop in order to help those convicted learn how to change their patterns -- would be an extremely good step in the right direction.