How Do We Do Social Justice? (VII)
The title of David Wells’ new book puts our current dilemma within what historically has been called evangelicalism into perspective: The Courage to Be Protestant. That’s a provocative title in “our time” because it should require us to reflect—seriously—upon what it means to be a Protestant in the 21st century. The point to which modern day evangelicalism has devolved gives us a very accurate snapshot of what Protestantism isn’t in the 21st century. When the Evangelical Theological Society is welcoming open theists warmly, you know evangelicalism is in deep trouble. Personally, I’ve come to the point in my life where I no longer want to be called an evangelical. The term Christian will do, Presbyterian Christian is acceptable, or Reformed is adequate; anything except evangelical.
In our time, people like Brian McLaren, Jim Wallis, Rob Bell, and Jeremiah Wright would qualify for the moniker evangelical. You might as well add Paul Tillich and Rudolf Bultmann to the list. I tell you this because in a number of our latest issues we’ve been studying how the modern Church might be more effective in actually helping Christians find ways to alleviate poverty. In order to make our case, we have examined a number of biblical texts and concepts. What never ceases to amaze me is that as soon as you start down this biblical path there is the ubiquitous pomo (maybe even a Christian pomo) who wants to start a discussion about
What is all the more ironic in these discussions is that emergent pomos even care. Why should they given their presuppositions? Why do they care? Why, for example, does Bri want us to care for the planet and to be concerned about poverty? In other words, from what inviolable standard are we to judge everything to be relative? Or, from which relative standard are we to judge McLaren’s musings to be inviolable? It is this ridiculous back-and-forth that is rapidly becoming incredibly tedious. In fact, David Wells’ words aptly describe McLaren, Wallis, Bell, Miller, Pagitt, and Anne Lamott: “They began as rebels and ended up as little-minded conformists. Postmoderns are not boring—at least not yet—but they are very trivial.”[1] Indeed. Tedious is their default setting.
That being the case, I’m convinced that the best way to proceed is to set forth the biblical case and let the pomo emergents rant. Don’t get me wrong: I am more than willing to discuss matters with them, but they ought not to expect me to answer in the frivolous, flippant, relativistic manner that they do. As Wells reminds us, “it is important to remember that culture does not give the church its agenda. All it gives the church is its context. The church’s belief and mission come from the Word of God…. It is not the culture that determines the church’s priorities. It is not the (post)modern culture that should be telling it what to think.”[2]
I mention this precisely because it is the trajectory—and has been from the outset—of McLaren’s theology—if you can actually call what he does theology. For example, his cutting-edge character, Neo, an ole Bri knockoff, keeps urging us towards a “new framework,”—which, by the way, is the recurrent theme in Bri’s new book—in which we ask, “not which religion is true, but which religion is good.”[3] This is one of the primary reasons that Bri disdains what he calls the conventional doctrine of hell. It’s conventional, you see; contextual, but certainly not biblical. His desire is for everyone in our postmodern culture to forge their private, subjective, contextualized understanding of Christ. For this and a host of other reasons, his book A Generous Orthodoxy is neither generous nor orthodox. It is anything but generous to traditional, historical Christianity and his musings do not qualify for what the Church has judged to be orthodoxy. “The author has apparently no respect for those who have gone before him and who contributed the classical understandings of Christian faith.”[4] When I read McLaren, Wallis, Bell, and other emergents I am left with the distinct impression that Christianity has very little to do with truth—except what they deem to be truth; to be for the greater good of mankind. Their works are about everything except truth. To coin Doug Groothuis’ words, they have “truth decay.”
Private and Social Ethics
Scripture speaks clearly about both what we are to do as individuals as well as socially. God does not give us two sets of universal standards or norms; one for the secularist and another for the Christian. All are held to the same standard. Sodom and Gomorrah were not judged by a different standard of righteousness by God, but rather by the one standard that God applies across the board—universally.
Therefore, whether we are “doing” individual ethics or social ethics, our source for such decisions is Scripture. A problem arises, however, because so many today are almost totally bereft of a biblical worldview. Moreover, “We the people” have capitulated and abdicated so much over such a long period of time that we are flummoxed when the government doesn’t step in and perform acts of mercy that truly belong to the domain of Christ’s Church.
To summarize what we’ve learned up to this point: We have been focusing on the biblical notion of “gleaning” from the Old Testament and we have derived that recipients of biblical charity were to be diligent workers. There was no place for the lazy or the sluggard. It is safe to say that those who were entirely or severely disabled were excluded from this arrangement.
Second, we took due note of the fact that with the exception of the Levitical disbursements for the needy, biblical charity was privately dispensed.
Third, we ended last week by stating that biblical charity was also discriminatory. That is to say, “Biblical charity knows nothing of promiscuous handouts to sluggards.”[5] This corresponds to what we are taught in 2 Thessalonians 3:10.[6] Grant continues and reminds us of this essential point: “In Acts 20, the Apostle Paul admonished the elders of the Ephesian church to exercise discriminatory oversight in their congregation.”[7] This leads me to ask this: how many of our postmodern churches and emergent conversationalists are taking the requisite time to train their Elders and Deacons so that they function as Scripture prescribes? It’s one thing to carp that what I’m writing won’t work; it’s quite another thing to train your Elders and Deacons and try it. I agree wholeheartedly, therefore, with Grant when he writes, “In this day of institutionalized guilt and federalized pity, we must make certain that we measure our conceptions of justice, mercy, and compassion against God’s standards in Scripture. Justice that does not discriminate between the worthy and unworthy is not true justice, no matter what the ACLU says. Mercy that does not discriminate between the deserving and the undeserving is not true mercy.”[8]
Proverbs 6:6-11 is particularly instructive in this regard. “Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise. Without having any chief, officer, or ruler, she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest. How long will you lie there, O sluggard? When will you arise from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and want like an armed man.” In Proverbs 19:15 we read, “Slothfulness casts into a deep sleep, and an idle person will suffer hunger,” and in 21:25-26 this wisdom is imparted to us: “The desire of the sluggard kills him, for his hands refuse to labor. All day long he craves and craves, but the righteous gives and does not hold back.” The spiritual lesson is this: “Willing to labor long and hard, the gleaner was the recipient of regular charity. Unwilling to lift a hand, the sluggard was not.”[9] These texts are not the Christian Right speaking, but rather the voice of God. Christians ought to say “amen” to these scriptures across the spectrum of Right or Left because they are God’s words.
This is a far cry from what our government welfare programs envision. Not only have they been failures in terms of actually solving the various problems associated with poverty, but in the process, they have created wards of the state, dependent on it for subsistence rather than producing free men and women and liberating them both from poverty as well as government handouts.
Our fourth point on how churches can begin to administer biblical aid to those in need is taken from Deuteronomy 23:24-25: “If you go into your neighbor’s vineyard, you may eat your fill of grapes, as many as you wish, but you shall not put any in your bag. If you go into your neighbor’s standing grain, you may pluck the ear with your hand, but you shall not put a sickle to your neighbor’s standing grain.”
This text is highly instructive vis-à-vis modern congregational charity to those in true need. In the first place, we are not to be stingy with our aid for sustenance. If a family is in need of groceries, we should supply that to them out of the wealth of blessings that the Lord has bestowed upon us. Giving a family a couple of packages of “ramin” soup just won’t cut it. Deacons and their congregations should ensure that the food pantries are well stocked for those who are in need.
Second, there is a caveat or disclaimer attached to the Deuteronomy text. Whoever ate the grapes was not allowed to stuff extra grapes in their pockets/bags. That is to say, you couldn’t eat your fill and then take some for the road. This doesn’t mean of course that if we give people food they have to eat it in our presence before they leave the church! This is a silly qualification to have to make, but remember: we are dealing with pomos and other Emergent church folks as I write this. They are very thin-skinned folk, ready to cry “Foul!” at the drop of a hat.
Third, you can’t harvest what isn’t yours. Don’t put the sickle to the standing grain. That is illegal. Beisner summarizes this way: “Gleaners were not to harvest a surplus above their own immediate needs that they might sell at profit; that would be theft.”[10] Beisner’s comments are worthy of reflection. What was to be gleaned was simply what was needed. It should not be the case that the farmer should raise his crops only to have a gleaner come along and take what he hadn’t worked to raise and sell it. That constituted theft.
These principles should be discussed among Elders, Deacons, and their respective congregations. Among our goals for Christian charity ought to be the presentation of the gospel, recognizing that regeneration is one of the greatest needs of those seeking charity. Moreover, another goal ought to be to teach those in need to support themselves and, later, their families and others. In other words, we should be striving to extricate them from the realm of poverty and make them independent when it comes to looking to others for aid. We should certainly be aiming at getting them “unhooked” from their dependence on state-controlled welfare.
[1] David Wells, The Courage to Be Protestant, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2008), p. 101.
[2] Ibid., 98.
[3] Ibid., 86. Italics mine.
[4] Ibid., 87.
[5] George Grant, Bringing in the Sheaves, (Atlanta: American Vision, 1985), p. 82.
[6] For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
[7] Grant, BITS, 83.
[8] Ibid., 84.
[9] Ibid., 85.
[10] E. Calvin Beisner, Prosperity and Poverty, (Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock, 2001), p. 208.
Labels: Social Justice


99 Comments:
For clarity: Rattle, you suggest that it is not the role of the govt. to do mercy. Yet, you advocate for justice via the armed forces.
Justice & mercy go hand it hand; so it's peculiar that you embrace one for our govt. and yet not the other.
This one is quite straightforward: It is not the place of the government to administer mercy; its job is the execution of justice. This is the clear intent of Romans 13. Mercy is for the Church; therefore, I find no contradiction in the government administering justice (i.e., the death penalty for convicted murderers, deporting illegal aliens, protecting our country from those who would harm us, etc.) and the Church being merciful.
Justice and mercy go hand and hand in God, but he choose differing realms to administer each. I don't find it odd at all that I separate the realms in which these are to be administered. In fact, I find it odd that you don't.
Randy,
One other thing. I'm not certain that you will read my comments on the previous post, but I deleted the filth you wrote there--all in the name of love and tolerance, no doubt.
But I would like for you to respond to this please: A couple of times you have raised the point of "different views of the atonement." Yes, certain people have held to differing views, but they were not all equally biblically correct, were they? Moreover, we know that certain views had a profound negative effect upon the biblical truth of justification by faith, don't we? And since justification by faith is a major tenet of the Christian faith, we wouldn't want to teach any view of the atonement that would do despite to justification by faith, would we?
"Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."
Anyway, Randy..have you perchance learned to differentiate between individual believers, the church corporate and the nation-state yet?
I thought not.
As for justice & mercy, one can't truly be done without the other. Both intrinsically grow out of love. You can’t have one without the other. Christ on the cross is both justice and mercy. The resurrection is both justice and mercy.
A reformed worldview suggests that with the reign of God, we are called to live within that reality. We are also called to be people of both justice and mercy regardless if we are pastors, elders, deacons, senators, or even the President.
I would wonder how a follower of Jesus would administer justice but entirely forgo Micah 6:8?
solameanie,
yes. i've have more than a few college credits from several colleges and universities in political science...
but if we don't really care what our nation does... why do we argue agaist abortion? it's really about mercy and not justice after all... if we can actually seperate the two?
as followers of Jesus, this trumps our political persuasion regardless! If our party, our money, our personal platform take the top position regardless of our field of influence, then those things become lord. it's really that simple.
did you have a bad day?
Randy,
As usual, you have completely neglected to interact with what I wrote or with Romans 13. Please stick to the point. Mercy is not the role of the State. Since you have a number of credits in poli-sci, after you have established your point from Scripture, you can then proceed to show us from our founding documents where the government is to show mercy. I'm very interested because I read these documents on a regular basis.
If I recall, Romans was written under the Roman Empire. Jesus was agaist his followers being a people who tried to overthrow this empire; Paul suggests the same.
So, if we have justice from our American govt. and not mercy?
We should no longer do research to cure specific cancers; we should not have interviened in New Orleans. We should let the recent tornado victims of our land fend for themselves and whatever the church might bring.
We should let the Burmese people starve and die of diseases since our own govt. shouldn't be about these things.
It's the Libertarians who advocate this sort of limited government.
To suggest the things you do, also means that any Christian within our current political system can no longer be faithful to the biblical text's message to be peopel of justice and mercy.
Miroslav Volf would be a good read regarding how justice and mercy are two sides of the same coin... a great theologian too!
Randy,
In what situations would you exercise mercy? In what situations would you exercise justice?
Who has the right to determine the appropriate response to a given situation?
Would you have pardoned John Wayne Gacy, commuted his sentence to time served, given him life in prison, or would you have carried out his execution? Deal with Romans 13 as Ron suggests, and that might lead you to a few answers.
I can't say I particularly had a bad day. I guess I am just growing weary with your blunderbuss approach to Scripture and theology. Instead of dealing with specifics and specific Scriptures, you continue to throw handfuls against the wall in hopes that something sticks.
BTW, you totally missed the point of Romans 13, if you think the only intent was discouraging rebellion against the Roman Empire.
As a matter of fact, there have been those who interpret Romans 13 as allowing the overthrow of a tyrannical government. If a government ceases to be a "terror to evildoers," it is no longer a legitimate government. I haven't totally thought that one out, but it is one of the views out there.
Randy,
Romans 13:1-4 hardly says anything about overthrowing the government. It is simply a NT explanation of the place of the state and the civil magistrates. It also tells us that the "sword" is given to the state to execute justice.
You wrote, "We should no longer do research to cure specific cancers; we should not have interviened [sic] in New Orleans. We should let the recent tornado victims of our land fend for themselves and whatever the church might bring.
We should let the Burmese people starve and die of diseases since our own govt. shouldn't be about these things."
Why do you think cancer research is the job of government? Shouldn't private enterprise do that? Wouldn't private enterprise do a much better, more efficient job? In point of fact, it is private businesses that are performing this type of research.
Why do you think that government should have done Katrina and not churches? Should the government care for the street children as well? Our congregation doesn't think so, therefore we contribute to Katrina relief and to the street children ministry through our Board of Deacons.
It really seems like the government of Burma is doing an excellent job of letting its citizens suffer without our intervention. Besides, once they finally decide to let us in, who's to say if those in the most need will actually get the aid? You really do have a deficient concept of the sinfulness of sin. You and your government funded programs are a large part of the problem.
But to the point: Are you ever going to respond--not react--to what is written, or do you simply intend to continue to rant incoherently? You are truly one of the poster boys for this nonsensical thing called the "emergent conversation."
If the govt. is all about justice and not mercy, then why does abortion matter? It's a matter of mercy; so why should we care?
As for the justice/mercy thing and the church overseeing mercy but the state overseeing justice...
That's very narrow reformed theology... I'm having a hard time thinking Kuiper stood by that view?
Furthermore, after reading these comments again... seperation of church and state is in the Constitution. It isn't in the Bible.
To suggest that you can be a REFORMED Christian politician AND not believe that you have a responsibility to the 'least of these' is making a whore out of reformed theology.
Your suggestion means that Christians are only capable of doing partial good within govt. We can help administer justice through this nation's form of govt., but we are not capable of administering mercy?????
In other words, you declare that God doesn't really reign. You take his sovereignty away that only 'partial good' could come out of an Iraq war.
AND -- no good could come out of us helping starving Burmese people if our nation takes the lead.
FOR, I am sure we have a handful of Christian congregations around this country who have an available fleet of cargo plains capable of supplying food and water to these people.
In other words, the VEHICLE of mercy becomes more important that the act of mercy? If I do a mission of mercy to Iraq right now with my church, that is blessed by God. But if I am am American soldier helping rebuild utilities, then it will not be blessed by God?
Randy, are you really that obtuse, or is it a clumsy attempt at humility? I have an extremely difficult time believing that you would have such trouble with reading comprehension, as evidenced by your replies to the questions posed to you here in these comments.
Wordsmith,
I begin to think it's really by design rather than obtuseness. Emergents love to try and stand logical argument on its head. In their system of thought, uncertainty and obfuscation are nearly deified.
And yes, I think Randy knows full well what he's doing. That's what makes it all the more reprehensible, in my view. It doesn't matter how clearly you state your case, what Scriptures you cite, what historical record to which you refer. None of it matters. He will find some way to cloud the water, come Gehenna or flood.
See what happens when you don't look at the uberblog for a week-end... You enter the conversation late.
The question that comes up in my mind is: "How do you expect a secular government to consistently administer Christian mercy?" In the Canadian context here is one of the ways "mercy" in the hands of the government plays out: Making abortion available to everyone, free of charge. (You wouldn't want someone to have to live with the consequence of a decision. It is much easier to commit murder.) I don't care how you try to spin it, but that is not mercy. However, in the mind of the government, it falls under the social equality program provided by our dear elected officials. I don't think the US is that far behind in these areas from what I can tell. I've said this before, but I'll say it again: that decision alone is evidence enough for me to want to keep that task out of the government's hands.
Once you take the responsibility out of the church and place it in the secular government's hands, there is no guarantee it will be Christian mercy or look anything like it.
Randy, I agree with rattle that your view of the sinfulness of man is underdeveloped (it seems that way, anyhow). We are not by nature good. That doesn't change when you become an elected official. From what I can tell, it actually often makes the condition worse (just kidding... sort of). The utopia you think can exist through legislation and higher taxes in fact is only a dream.
I can't help but chuckle a bit at Randy's reference to the situation in Burma, and a host of American congregations having cargo planes to send aid there.
As if Western governments and others in the international community haven't been trying to send such aid? The Burmese junta won't let it in. You can't just up and fly aid in on your own without government clearance. Speaking of which, I think you should send some deserved ire to the Burmese junta for blocking international aid, instead of chiding American congregations for their alleged insensitivity to the situation.
Randy,
"If the govt. is all about justice and not mercy, then why does abortion matter?"
I hope that you're kidding. The "law" regarding abortion is a matter of justice. Apart from that, abortion is lousy law and violates the justice due to the unborn. Understand?
"As for the justice/mercy thing and the church overseeing mercy but the state overseeing justice...That's very narrow reformed theology... I'm having a hard time thinking Kuiper stood by that view?"
Obviously, you haven't read Kuyper (Kuyper; not Kuiper--they're different people). Have you read Kuyper? Is your Dutch that good? Have you read Bavinck? You should, especially if you want to see "very narrow reformed theology." Funny.
"seperation of church and state is in the Constitution." Actually, Randy, it isn't in the Constitution either.
Hermeneutically, there is a difference between the OT & NT in terms of the Church and State. In the OT there was a theocracy. That specific theocracy has been dismantled. Therefore the NT situation is different. That is why I asked you to do your homework in Romans 13. To date, no of us have seen anything from you about this text. Are you going to explain your view on it?
Volf is a liberal Presbyterian (UPUSA) who teaches at Yale and who studied with Moltmann. Does that tell you anything?
It's interesting to read how one can expect the civil government to show mercy while it "bears the sword". To show mercy is to put the sword away, but that would mean the civil government would have to relinquish its role. Romans 13 clearly shows that this isn't the role for the civil government.
We should no longer do research to cure specific cancers; we should not have interviened in New Orleans. We should let the recent tornado victims of our land fend for themselves and whatever the church might bring.
We should let the Burmese people starve and die of diseases since our own govt. shouldn't be about these things.
Randy, Scripture does not prescribe these things to the civil government. Such acts are to be done by individuals. But for the sake of argument, if this is the role of the civil government, then you must also advocate "thou shall not steal, except by majority vote." Money must come from somewhere in order to do these things you have stated.
The civil government is not a business, so it must get its money through taxation. It's basically getting its money through the barrel of a gun. Don't believe me? Try not paying your taxes and see where you end up. Law is force and it compels one into obedience. Disobey and you are punished.
Where's your mercy now?
As a nation, Americans are the most generous compared to other nations, but as our government continues to grow beyond its role, it has become a parasite to the American people. Americans are strangled monetarily through the heavy burden of taxation and government inflation. How are individuals, especially Christians, expected to show love and mercy if the means are given to an entity that wastes it?
Even you hint at the fact that the help from the church is inadequate concerning the tornado victims. Hmmm, could it be that church help is inadequate because money that should have been for the church tithe is being taken from Christians by the civil government through the use of the sword? Or that Christians who already pay their taxes and tithes just don't have more to give? Could it be that both Christians and non-Christians are looking more to the Church of Civil Government to show acts of mercy instead of the Church that Christ established?
If you want mercy to come from the civil government, then the best mercy it can show is to relinquish the roles that was never meant for it. Otherwise, you might as well proclaim that tyranny is best way to show mercy.
But you know what? I agree with you, Randy, in that justice and mercy do go hand-in-hand and that they are two sides of the same coin. It certainly is most applicable for the individual, but just because it is applicable for the individual does not necessarily mean it is applicable for a group/entity, and vice versa. For example, the civil government can put someone to death for murder, but that does not mean you or I can put someone to death for murder. I can discipline my kids if they are not sharing, but the civil government does not have the right to come into my home to discipline my kids for not sharing (unless you really do advocate tyranny). Not even the church has the right to come into my home to discipline my kids. But with all things being equal in your mind, maybe the church should start executing justice. After all, justice and mercy go hand-in-hand, so the church just can't be all about mercy. *tongue-in-cheek*
Self-government, church government, and civil government each have their roles to play within their spheres. Advocating to go beyond those roles is to argue from silence; subvert the order which God has established; and is an affront to God's Wisdom.
Blessings!!
I blog to you on behalf of Fr. Frank Pavone and Priests for Life. Fr. Pavone recently posted two videos on You Tube in which he describes and demonstrates the two most common abortion techniques, using the actual instruments of abortion and the words found in medical textbooks and court testimony.
You can view these videos at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us_y9GP_-DA (Dismemberment abortion) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBOAPleF1t0 (Suction abortion).
These videos are part of a new project called, "Is This What You Mean?" It aims to educate the public about the nature of abortion and to challenge public officials and candidates who support the legality of abortion to admit what it is. A full description of the project is at www.priestsforlife.org/action/abortion-procedure-revealed.htm .
We are asking blog moderators to post a link or set-up an area on their blog for easy access to view our two You Tube videos.
As Fr. Pavone has quoted in endless homilies and talks about public servants who are pro-choice, there is a difference between serving the public and killing the public. Abortion has lost its meaning and is just a word to some politicians. In fact, as long as it has been since Jan.22 1973, the public is still not aware of what an abortion is and what it looks like. Again, we urge you to view Fr. Pavone’s demonstrations and forward this to anybody unaware such as parents, pastors, teachers, government officials etc….
In Christ,
David--MEV
dclark@priestsforlife.org
Randy,
If the govt. is all about justice and not mercy, then why does abortion matter? It's a matter of mercy; so why should we care?
Since when is murder a matter of mercy?
Hats off to soli deo for a very well written and thought out post.
To suggest that Romans 13 advocates specific things for the state for all times and all places seems a stretch.
It was not Paul's attempt to state that govt. was to act a certain way and the church another way for all future generations. He was speaking to a particular context.
This is not to suggest that we have nothing to learn from Romans 13. It simply means that we can't use these sort of chapters to advocate specific kinds of govt. rule as 'godly' rule while suggesting others are not 'godly.'
As Mirslov Volf points out, you can't have mercy without justice. Neither can you have real justice without mercy.
This is EXACTLY why many Christians are outraged with abortion. It goes against principles of justice in the case of the fetus as well as principles of mercy.
In terms of saving the fetus, it's 'mercy' in that a young child will die. It is 'justice' in that the young child deserves a chance to attain life outside the womb. So, it becomes both justice and mercy.
The Iraq war - When it was about getting rid of a terrible dictator, it was about justice and also about showing mercy toward the Iraqi people.
Think back to Hussein being hanged. Remember that video on the internet? Justice was perhaps his death. But, the video did nothing to serve justice nor to show mercy toward him. A lack of mercy also meant a lack of justice.
Likewise, with an unborn child. Without justice mercy is not served. Without mercy, justice is not served.
Real justice can not be carried out without love. Neither can mercy be carried out without love.
The more you think about this matter, the more you'll sense the biblical text breathing into issues of justice and mercy. Ultimately, issues of mercy and justice are one in the same.
In so doing, issues don't become 'republican' or 'democrat,' 'black' nor white,' 'conservative' nore 'liberal.' They become issues that deal with concern for one another and they become issues of hope for a better future.
This is why someone like Obama (not that you need to like him) has so much appeal. People are tired of being told that we can't get along with one another. We do know better. We do know that issues of abortion, human rights, human suffering, taxation, education, etc. matter to all of us.
To suggest that these issues only matter to one party, one group, or one labal is overlooking our obvious desires as people.
---------------------
On a few side notes, I don't underestimate the ramifications of sin. If anyone thinks our brokenness doesn't matter, I suggest that you read 'The Brevity of Sin' by Neil Plantinga.
As far as Volf being a PCA guy, labels are not helpful. Do Marines think that Army people are less loyal to our nation? We know the Marines are the 'best of the best.' Yet, they all rally around the flag.
Perhaps it's time that we hold other theology in tension, but perhaps shooting the army guys for being less fit or less smart isn't wise either.
To suggest that Romans 13 advocates specific things for the state for all times and all places seems a stretch.
It was not Paul's attempt to state that govt. was to act a certain way and the church another way for all future generations. He was speaking to a particular context.
Paul, speaking as an Apostle, spoke with the authority of God. For you to suggest that Paul was not speaking of transcendent principles of government is an affront to what God has established. (Romans 13:1) The civil magistrate is God's servant. (vs. 4) Amazing, isn't it? That Paul would say this of the Roman government!
This is not to suggest that we have nothing to learn from Romans 13. It simply means that we can't use these sort of chapters to advocate specific kinds of govt. rule as 'godly' rule while suggesting others are not 'godly.'
Paul may have been speaking of a particular context, but you have to do some spectacular exegetical gymnastics to prove your point that this was only for this particular context. All you have done is assert a position without proving it. Sorry, but just saying so doesn't make it so. It is no better than if you were to present to me the Sermon on the Mount as a prooftext and I said, "That's not for all time. Just only for those people in that context."
As for justice and mercy, I know what you're saying, but you still have to engage what I am saying concerning the spheres of government. The proper role of civil government is to uphold the law and bring justice upon those who transgress it. Its only acts of mercy is its protection of the innocent; upholding justice for the victims; and lawfully upholding the law.
Beyond these roles, you must argue from silence that the civil government is allowed to do more. But that just opens up a can of worms. If one can argue from silence for roles beyond its limitations, then you can argue for anything. What an Hegalian nightmare! Who here wants the State to be "God walking on the Earth"?
Like I said, Randy, I agree that justice and mercy do go hand-in-hand, but you need to know where the two are enjoined. The civil government's main role is about justice, but the consequence of meeting out this justice is mercy for the innocent and the victims. For it to do more is to go into the realm of tyranny. How is that ever merciful?
Then the question becomes who are the innocent?
It seems that Jesus was clear that we are to be people who feed those with need: provide water for the thirsty, shelter and clothing for those without. With all of the healing that Jesus did, it seems are are also called to heal -- perhaps health care and access to doctors would be included.
As a follower of Jesus, I am to do everything legal within my power to make those things reality. Within a democratic form of govt., it is my duty to also encourage our govt. to do those things.
To believe providing these things leads to tyranny seems a bit perplexing.
While a nation is not the face of God on earth, neither is it something that needs to be amoral.
It seems ironic that Americans who don't follow the ways of Jesus may advocate for a govt. that does more mercy and justice than those who follow Jesus?
People who don't "follow the ways of Jesus" are hardly interested in true justice and mercy, as defined by God in Scripture. They are more interested in gaming the system and sucking dry the teats of a nanny state. "Gimme!" is their watchword, and "What's in it for me?" is their chief concern. Catering to such parasites is akin to enabling an alcoholic in his self-destruction. That is neither love, justice, nor mercy.
It seems that Jesus was clear that we are to be people who feed those with need: provide water for the thirsty, shelter and clothing for those without. With all of the healing that Jesus did, it seems are are also called to heal --
This is true as a calling for the individual.
...perhaps health care and access to doctors would be included.
If one wishes to create a private enterprise to endeavor this, then that is up to the individual or group of individuals. They would be doing this out of their own pocket and/or charitable giving.
As a follower of Jesus, I am to do everything legal within my power to make those things reality.
Amen.
Within a democratic form of govt., it is my duty to also encourage our govt. to do those things.
But here is where you fail to understand the argument. You presuppose that in a democratic form of government, anything is allowed. You never presuppose that there is a proper biblical role of the civil government, or rather, there is no limitation of the civil government, so long as it follows after biblical good.
To believe providing these things leads to tyranny seems a bit perplexing.
Not at all when you start to look at the big picture.
For one, you still need to address the issue of taxation. Because it is law that people must pay taxes, it is, essentially, taken from the people by force. They are compelled to pay or else they are punished.
Taxes to pay for the employment of civil servants is fine. The civil government needs people to run it. But taxes for the purpose of welfare is, at the root of it, theft of the masses in order to give to the poor.
So, in the example of universal health care, you want the government to tax the people in order to provide health coverage for the poor. Essentially, it is to rob everyone, both rich and poor, and redistribute it to the poor in terms of universal healthcare. Taxing may be legal, but it isn't lawful to use taxation as a means to take for redistributive programs.
Let that last sentence sink in. If you can advocate taxation for the purpose of "healing", then there is no end to the forceful taking of ones stewardship for whatever cause one deems as "healing." How is it mercy upon those being taxed for something that they may not agree as being "healing"? Not everyone in America is Christian, so you'll have a wide variety of subjective views of what one considers to be "healing".
Also, in a fallen world, there are many problems that we face as human beings. Is the civil government supposed to "heal" them all?
If you say yes, then the work that people do is not for themselves, but for the government and the "hurt". If that's the case, it's better not to work since I would never be able to reap the rewards of my toil. I'm poor if work or don't work. It's a zero sum game if there is no limit as to what the civil government should "heal".
If you say no, what determines the limit of what the civil government should and should not do? In fact, why would there ever be a limitation at all? You do want to "heal", right?
And coming back to points that I have made before, if the sphere of the civil government is not to be bound to its biblical limitations, then you must open the Pandora's Box. "Providing these things leads to tyranny" because once you open the Box to allow the civil government to go beyond its proper role, then there is little to stop it from assuming other roles that it should never have. It's best to turn away from that temptation than to give into it because it is a slippery slope. Heck, we've been sliding on it for quite sometimes and we're picking up speed.
While a nation is not the face of God on earth, neither is it something that needs to be amoral.
A civil government that executes its proper role is far from being amoral.
It seems ironic that Americans who don't follow the ways of Jesus may advocate for a govt. that does more mercy and justice than those who follow Jesus?
That's because non-Christians do not seek out God and His Church to perform the justice and mercy of Christ. Instead, they seek out the civil government to be their "messiah" and for it to perform their sense of justice of mercy. You can't expect non-believers to understand the proper biblical role of the civil government, now can you? :-)
I'd like to raise the question of what Christ's miracles of healing pointed to. If we're going to use Christ's miracles of healing as the platform for universal healthcare, we should be consistent.
Were Christ's miracles not performed to point to his Lordship over all different aspects of life, nature, etc. and to confirm his authority as God's Son? I think we can all agree to that. Now all we have to do is look and see if the countries who have established universal healthcare consistently reflect that purpose in the service they provide. I currently live in Canada, a country well-known for its universal health care. Here, the only thing these services point to is the federal government. "Don't worry. The government is here to take care of you." is the attitude du jour. God's power to heal, and recongnition thereof, is left entirely out of it. As a matter of fact, you could probably get into big trouble for claiming that it did.
Randy, I can appreciate your concern to provide for those in need. I think it is an important question to raise in wealthy cultures like Canada and the US. Perhaps it is more appropriate to encourage Christians to be active in this area rather than expect the government to do this for us. From what God provides for us, we are to take care of the needy. The government is simply an unnecessary middle man.
Is it moral to have generational welfare, where the adults have more out of wedlock children to get larger welfare checks? And then spend their money on alcohol and cigarettes? And live lifestyles where the bulk are grossly obese?
Or is it more moral to grant temporary assistance to a needy family, while requiring (plus training and assisting) them to find work?
As long as Christians continue to Vote - especially when their ballots are cast with moral reason and religious conviction (which, as is often pointed out in this blog, is required by Christians) - there can be no separation of church and state. In a democracy, the church IS the state. Who then is responsible for administering justice... or mercy... or could it be that the same government should have a hand in both? Or does the church, being the state, which applies justice, eschew its requirement to administer mercy? Sorry, you can't have it both ways.
Sola Deo:
Hat's off for accentuating the hypocrisy of Christians who say they aren't responsible for justice when wearing their mercy hat, or for mercy while wearing their justice hat. Brilliant.
Randy:
1) Haven't you been paying attention to all the ranting in this blog? We shouldn't be sending aid to Burma, or Bangladesh, or any 3rd world country in need because they are Godless nations and they got what was coming to them.
2) I agree with a lot of things you say, but when you say things like "Jesus hung out gays... [well, ok, what I meant was] Jesus might have hung out with gays..." you are the one who comes across as sounding like a liar and you lose pretty much all your credibility to argue anything with the other honest (though misguided) people who contribute comments here. My advice? Think first, type later. You might find that you don't as often have to defend positions that you didn't really have or believe in in the first place.
icedawg:
Do you really think Jesus performed miracles to demonstrate his power and assert his authority? Are you kidding? You gotta be... 'cause what he did on the cross makes 'em pale in comparison.
Solameanie:
Is it moral to have generational welfare, where the adults have more out of wedlock children to get larger welfare checks?And then spend their money on alcohol and cigarettes?
Is there anything other than black or white in your bleak little world? This is not a "yes or no" question... but the answer is more "yes" than "no". Did you give up eating tuna because the occasional Dolphin is caught in the nets? No? Bad argument, then, and not particularly profound.
Sister,
Again... completely misrepresented. I won't respond. Start being fair in how you treat what I say and we can talk/write.
"Were Christ's miracles not performed to point to his Lordship over all different aspects of life, nature, etc. and to confirm his authority as God's Son? I think we can all agree to that," is what you said. I'm not so sure how you figure that was misrepresented.
The reason you won't respond is because it's your m.o. to turn your back when things aren't going your way. That's nothing new for you.
Oh... one more thing...
Soli Deo,
Thanks for the mellifluous missive on the evil of taxes. Now can you clear up the idea of tithes for us? 'Cause coming from the same perspective, it would sound something like this:
For one, you still need to address the issue of [tithes]. Because it is law that people must pay [tithes], it is, essentially, taken from the people by force. They are compelled to pay or else they are punished.
[Tithes] to pay for the employment of [pastors] is fine. The [church] needs people to run it. But [tithes] for the purpose of welfare is, at the root of it, theft of the masses in order to give to the poor.
Do you suggest that tithing is entirely voluntary, or are you just waiting until you've got rid of taxes and welfare before you tackle the problem of how the church wastes your money on charity too?
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I have to hand it to you, Sister. You actually managed to generate a real snark out of me. That's why I deleted my previous two comments.
So, rather than popping your bubble as I originally intended, I'll merely suggest this. Try doing some serious study on this issue before making silly comments about tuna and dolphin. If you had thought about it a bit more, there were actually some serious sociological issues behind what I said. Those points have not been made solely by little ol' me. They've been made by numerous scholars who have spent years studying the failures of the welfare state.
Perhaps your own ideology blinds you to facts, and maybe your own world is just a little bit dark and narrow . . . just on the other side of the spectrum.
I'm glad you know me so well Sister.
Sorry solameanie,
I should have known better than to think you'd understand the analogy. Let me print it in black and white for you.
It is truly ignorant to paint all welfare recipients with the broad brush of your described "generational welfare".
I have had extensive, decades long experience with people within the welfare system, and the multitudes of people you envision procreating for profit are truly few and far between. Most have been truly needy; few have been overweight, and none have been obese. I have seen, first hand, true and desperate victims who have been rescued by social welfare. The church was not there for them, and in some cases the church was part of the cause of their situations.
There is no argument that abuse of the system occurs. However, until you have another system in place that will ensure the truly needy (any way you want to describe them) get the assistance they need, then pulling the plug on the welfare machine in order to suffocate the parasitic minority is just selfish, foolish, reprehensible, and evil.
If you recall, I objected vehemently when icedawg generalized about welfare recipients too. It's become frighteningly common in this forum.
You have a responsibility to the true victims of YOUR society. The church is not presently prepared, equipped, and in most cases willing to undertake the responsibility. Are you going to be the one who's responsible for making sure noone falls through the cracks, or are you going to ante up and pay your share?
I contend that it is moral to support a system that can't prevent all abuse within it, ONLY in order to minimze the neglect of a greater contingent who deserve our help.
I read the post again Sister and I admit that I did not say it well the first time. I'll try to say it again, but if you treat it unfairly or if you start putting all sorts of attitudes in what I'm writing that I don't have, I'll stop. That doesn't mean you have to agree with me. Just treat it respectfully.
I said: Were Christ's miracles not performed to point to his Lordship over all different aspects of life, nature, etc. and to confirm his authority as God's Son?
I still won't withdraw that thought, but I think it needs some further explanation. After the miracle at the wedding in Cana we read:
"This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him." John 2:11
My point simply is that the Miracles are used to establish Christ's supremacy in all these areas to validate his claim that He is the Messiah. He is worthy to stand in our place before God and to repay our debt because He is both God and man. His death on the cross has meaning because he first shows that he is God through his miracles.
If we are to use Jesus miraculous healing to argue for universal health care, we should apply it consistently. Every doctors visit should then be used to point to the one who provides the healing: God.
Does that help clear it up?
icedawg,
Yes, I agree with your assesment of the miracles AND... we need to recognize that these miracles also acts of healing. Human bodies were healed. To neglect this aspect of miracles means we forget that there was real value to the recipients.
The miracles were not simply God's way of affirming his power and position.
To seperate the roles of govt. at has been advocated here... it certainly moves outside the bounds of mainstream reformed theology.
Thanks for clarifying, but I still take exception with your interpretation.
While you read "Jesus performed this miracle so that the disciples would see his glory and then put their faith in him", I read, "The disciples put their faith in him after he performed this miracle and revealed his glory."
Jesus' motivation for performing miracles wasn't to prove to everyone that he was the Son of God. He didn't need to. He proved that with Grace.
About fairness:
When I hit that "Publish Your Comment" button, I expect that my comments will be subjected to the same substantial rhetoric that is hurled in every direction, by all contributors, from the first post to the last, in this blog... You should too.
To seperate the roles of govt. at has been advocated here... it certainly moves outside the bounds of mainstream reformed theology.
You are absolutely right, Randy. It does move outside the bounds of mainstream reformed theology. That's because mainstream reformed theology has reformed itself away from historical reformed theology. I've seen it first-hand when I used to belong to an RCA church, and I experienced it in a CRC church when I had to find a new church home. And after visiting so many church websites that claim to be reformed and hearing their sermons (many of which are either RCA or CRC), I have to wonder why they bother having ties to reformed theology at all.
Hello Sister,
This may sound shocking to most, but I believe that acts of mercy primarily rest on the individual, not on the civil government, not even on the church government. The admonishments from Christ and the Apostles are to people, not government entities. After all, it is people who are given faith, so it is the people who should be doing works. It is people who are given the duty to work and stewardship of what they reap.
With that said:
Do you suggest that tithing is entirely voluntary, or are you just waiting until you’ve got rid of taxes and welfare before you tackle the problem of how the church wastes your money on charity too?
I don’t believe that tithing is voluntary. It is robbery of God when we don’t tithe. (Malachi 3:8). We’re not compelled to pay in the same way we are compelled in paying our taxes, but nonetheless, there are consequences for taking what is holy, separated for God.
Since I don’t believe that acts of mercy is the primary role of church government, then it is appropriate for the tithe to go to the administrators of the church. To withhold the tithe is to “muzzle the ox”. Those who plant the spiritual seed are deserving of reaping a material harvest.
Of course, it is up to the administration as to how the tithe is budgeted. It may be used entirely for their salaries, but then how are they to pay for the materials to run the church? So the tithe must be used wisely so that the entire church government can function in its duties.
So does the church government do anything at all for the poor and needy? Yes, it does, but it is secondary to the preaching of the Word, the administration of the Sacraments and church discipline. After the church budgets the tithe for its primary purpose, then what is left over, plus what has been given as a free-will offering, is used for the care for the poor.
But first thing is first. Such care is to be given to those in the church first before it is to be given to those from outside of the church. But as I said before, acts of mercy must come from people primarily. More specifically, we, as a people, must take care of our own, especially our household. Help from the church government only comes as a last resort.
Also, the church cannot “waste your money” because the tithe is not yours to begin with. It is God’s first and foremost.
(Sorry if I didn't provide prooftexts, but time is short at 2am.)
I think Soli saved the best for last. We have to remember that everything we have been given belongs to God. We are only taking care of it. The same is not so for the civil government. That is how tithe and taxes are different.
Perhaps I'm not reading your post correctly Soli, but you make it sound a little like an either/or when it comes to church vs. individual reaching out to the needy. I think we can mention enough texts in the NT where the church is relied on for distribution to the saints in need (Acts 6:1-7, 1 Cor. 16:3, 2 Cor. 9:5, Phil. 4:18). Having said that, I totally agree with you that the individual also bears responsibility for that task. I don't think we need to be forced into either/or kind of language. Both can exist side by side I think.
Sister, thanks for the decent reply. I appreciate it. I disagree with your closing statement of expecting what others do. Seems to me there is a passage that talks about "doing unto others as you would have them do to you?" (That's not to say that I think anyone on this blog is a ranting troll. A small disclaimer...) Just an encouragement. Perhaps if we think of Christ's demonstration of His power and authority as graceful in that He is showing who he is and that He is worthy to die in our place? I don't think you can separate His miracles from His message or grace. Many people have died sacrificially (of course names escape me right now, but I'm sure we can fill in the blank if we think for a little while), but they do not merit our trust as savior because they are not qualified to take away the guilt of our sin. However Jesus by showing He is God through His miracles performed in His own authority, proves that He can stand in our place.
Hi Icedawg,
The distinction isn't one of either/or, but of primary/secondary roles. For example, with Acts 6:1-7 with the caring of the widows, at first blush it would seem this is the church's primary role. But when we look at Paul's admonishment to Timothy concerning widows in 1 Timothy 5, we see that the family must be the one to care for the widows first. This is the application of the Fifth Commandment. The role of the church government comes as the last resort.
So acts of mercy and charity does have an order to it. It's not side-by-side per se, but one before the other. This isn't only applicable concerning widows, but relatives in general. (1 Timothy 5:8)
Soli,
I agree that the church's primary task is to exercise the means of grace in the preaching of the Word and faithful administration of the sacraments of baptism and communion. You can see that in the appointment of the seven in Acts 6 where Peter does not want to neglect the preaching. However, he does ensure replacements are found to carry on the task of "waiting on tables" and the existence of the office of deacon would point to a necessary continual involvement in mercy ministries.
Please don't misunderstand. I am aware that the individual is responsible for caring for his/her family before the church is. The church is a "last resort" in those cases. However, at the same time the church's deacons should be helping those in need that fall outside the sphere of the individual. That is why I think it is a both/and not an either/or.
Having said all that, I think I agree with you. :-)
Randy,
I apologize. I missed your comment there. It was an honest oversight. Better late than never, right?
I did clarify my position on the role of the miracles a little later on, so please refer to that. No question about it: the healed did experience some temporary physical benefit. However, if it did not lead to faith in Christ, the benefit was temporary. Christ's focus is on the spiritual healing of the person.
I suppose I would like you to define what mainstream reformed theology says on this issue and how what is being said here contradicts the teaching of Scripture.
Sister,
You know very little about me or what my range of knowledge is, so I look at these little sallies and broadsides of yours with a mixture of amusement and entertainment. I'll answer you point by point.
I should have known better than to think you'd understand the analogy. Let me print it in black and white for you. It is truly ignorant to paint all welfare recipients with the broad brush of your described "generational welfare.
I should have known better than to think you'd understand my reply. I should have also known better than to assume that you possessed reading comprehension skills. I never painted ALL welfare recipients with a broad brush of generational welfare. Don't make such stupid statements. If you really have done study on this issue, you would have known that there are problems of abuse like this within the system, and it's not merely anecdotal. I have personally known people myself that gamed the system like that and openly admitted it. I'm not alone. There has always been the differentiation between the truly needy and those who are perfectly capable of getting out and working. You obtusely seem not to get it.
I have had extensive, decades long experience with people within the welfare system, and the multitudes of people you envision procreating for profit are truly few and far between. Most have been truly needy; few have been overweight, and none have been obese. I have seen, first hand, true and desperate victims who have been rescued by social welfare. The church was not there for them, and in some cases the church was part of the cause of their situations.
I highly doubt it. Your "experience" must have been a tiny microcosm rather than broad. While I will concede for the sake of argument that those who set out to game the system with that as their motivation might well be fewer in number, in practice it is still what happens when families (and there are thousands of them) and their offspring remain on welfare for generations. There is a whole cycle involved here, beginning perhaps with initial bad circumstances, but then things like drug and alcohol abuse, out of wedlock pregnancies, absentee fathers etc. begin to kick in. A whole host of bad choices and their consequences snowball. And no genuine effort is made to break the cycle. Again, I don't have to make this up. Look a little, and you'll find plenty of studies to back up what I am saying. I suspect the real issue with you is your perpetual stinger out at the church and your false image that most churches have a Simon Legree attitude.
There is no argument that abuse of the system occurs. However, until you have another system in place that will ensure the truly needy (any way you want to describe them) get the assistance they need, then pulling the plug on the welfare m